-------------------------Just another brick in the wallHad a little mule I fed him castor oil and every time he jumped the fence he fertilized the soil, The older expansion valves were filled with the refrigerant they were used with, the replacement valves (today) are filled with a different chemical to work with both refrigerants..Hope this helps-------------------------ChickEmail: Chick---------------------------------------------Freedoms just another word for nothing left to lose, I believe the optimum supercool setting will vary slightly between an expansion valve for an R12, as compared to R134a, system. difference between r12 and r134a expansion valve why is miles raney not on homestead rescue June 21, 2022. manila mayor candidates 2022 30 deg is pretty coldSystems generally run between 40 and 43 deg. 3 ounces? sparkee said: Thanks for the Service Bulletin. The pressure/temperature curves for R-1234yf and R-134a are very similar. Osuagwu Solomon is a certified mechanic with over a decade of experience in the mechanic garage, and he has over five years of experience in the writing industry. The difference between R12 and r134a is the BTU carrying capability. After the initial charge the system is then tweeked : you determine the optimum amount of refrigerant to match your system by monitoring the a/c outlet vent temperature and the high side pressure as you add or remove refrigerant. Big . and feeds it through an expansion valve. The non-flammables can have R22 type gas which is not compatible with most rubber hoses or they have gases that contribute to global warming. a 50f delta across the condensor is good, but I suspect that is an idle reading. For example, if your system originally had 36 ounces of R12 then you multiply that by .80 and you have 29 ounce of R134a. BTW, I use a stick thermo in the vents and the laser on the condenser. Some say that a chemical reaction can harm the A/C very badly as R134a reacts with mineral oil in some way. I don't recall all the details, but starts off with the largest parallel flow condenser and improved fans. As illustrated in the chart below, the curves below run together nearly throughout the curve, only slightly breaking paths at around 250 psig/150 degrees and above Flammability/Safety R-1234yf has been designated as MILDLY flammable. The sticker typically has a place to note the amount of refrigerant used, the type of oil and amount of oil, the technicians sign off or name and the date of the conversion. Can I order a valve based on the original eaton number? What is a good differential? Condensers designed to release greater amounts of heat help to expel the greater amount of heat which R134a removes from the cars interior. It is mixed with the freon for the most part, and does accumulate in all components in small amounts. Its chemical symbol is CH2FCF3. difference between r12 and r134a expansion valve . The difference really shows up on the high side. A/C Expansion Valve Replacement Cost. Gain access to our free AOP (Ask a Professional) Section to get real answers for your questions. I don't want to be chasing ghosts. There are other refrigerants: some of which may work, some of which dont work, some of which will destroy your a/c system and some of which are dangerous. About four or five years ago, I guy with an MB came here with the same problem, that tread was over six pages long. Its chemical symbol is CCl2F2. Its highest value is 1. R12 is simply too expensive for a 25+ year old A/C system. It's best to determine on a case-by-case basis while monitoring system pressures and output air temperature. R-401b is the mixture by weight of 61% R22, 11% R-152a and 28% of R-124. You can buy bulk hose, and the proper fittings, then have them crimped off the vehicle.Be sure that no air bypasses the new condensor on the way to the radiator. 2022 nba 2k22 starting a fashion label signing the designer, a difference between r12 and r134a expansion valve, 2020 white paper of the church of pentecost, Chime Mobile Check Deposit Funds Availability, Why Does James Kill Donald In The Vanishing, nba 2k22 starting a fashion label signing the designer. Yep, definately not a meat locker. I'm curiousSo there is work to do, ie performance should be able to be improved. Bookmarks: Digg; del . Look at where the lines will end up. In addition, R134a refrigerants are not only used in auto air conditioners, they can be used in freezers, aerosol cans, and refrigerators. The newer valves and switches will work with both refrigerants. So if the TXV is OK, and the too much oil situation is not a big problem, then I wonder why the compressor is switching off after about 15 minutes of cooling? I don't believe it is but I had a service guy tell me it needs to be done. This is not to say that one of these small retro-fit kits cant be used, however to be used wisely. The first vehicle that used the R1234yf refrigerant was the 2013 Cadillac XTS. Is there more info needed?THanks -------------------------1983 Mercedes 240D on R12 and WVO!1192 Mercedes 300D 2.5 R134a1993 Toyota Pickup converted to R134a, Paul:I had to dig a bit deeper - MB made several running changes in the 1983 123'sThere are actually 4 different circuit diagrams for the A/C system that year - just for your 123.123 I found the R4 reference, and it should have 170 Ml of oil in the system.Your aux fan should run at the ambients you listed. 3) A TXV optimized for 134a will be ok with R12. Gnats & mosquitos will clog deep. Just because the radiator does not boil people assume that the cooling system is ok. For those of you who are considering what the cost is for R12 you can think of it this way: Dont go out to dinner this weekend. = R134a Charge Level. Post photos, respond to polls and access other special features. Thomas Jefferson, Thanks,OK, I'm starting to feel a little better about it. Rich Membership Chairman Using R134a in an R12 system will cause the oil not to move with the refrigerant, causing a system failure and probably won't even cool the system well, if at all. Catalog E-1, Thermostatic & Automatic Expansion Valves / Page 1 Table of Contents . Though - the valve for a 1991 says R12 on it, and for a 1994, it says R-134a. Additionally, R134a was introduced as a replacement for R22 and R12 in high and medium-temperature refrigeration systems like domestic and commercial chillers. Table 1 summarizes the technical characteristics of three potential R134a alternatives. The ARPA Zone/Open Membership Discussion Forums. I'm going to check the condensor is way clean too. Its chemical symbol is CCl2F2. Miscibility with oil: R12 can be mixed with the compressor oil no matter the operating condition. The only mechanical differences between an R12 system and an R134a system are that R134a systems typically have larger condensers and more powerful compressors. "Jerky Locker" LMAO I am using that one in the future!Florida = BUGS! In a comparison between R12 vs R134a vs R1234yf, R1234yf will pass as the best refrigerant. As noted, measure up front as best as you can to get as close to the aftermarket dim. Figure 2 shows the different phases and pressures the refrigerant . After the system has been tested out it should be checked for leaks. Like say half a can or so recharge come springtime warm weather or something. The money you will save by will pay for the R12. Warning: "continue" targeting switch is equivalent to "break".Did you mean to use "continue 2"? I dont know why the cost difference between compressors is so huge, though. The old compressor used R12 and the new unit will be R134a. Some cars have both an engine coolant temp switch & a refrigerant temp switch, others only the refrigerant switch. hardly noticable. I've done the FSM test and with 81F ambient, the vent should be 50F. Some compressor manufacturers or OEMs suggest PAG type oil for R134a. Looks like a couple of things happening here1) 80's vintage Eurocars were not "meat lockers". With R134a you do not rely on the site glass. CLUTCH CYCLING SWITCH. To ensure the right charge, you must fill the new system with between 75 and 85% of the factory-set capacity for optimal cooling. In the automotive world, the replacement for R12 was R134a. R134a vs R12 refrigerant? The only difference I can imagine would be the recharge connection. Depending on which circuit diagram fits your car (cough, no vin list exists) you have either one or two switches controlling the aux fan. The butylcellusolve or the citrus solvent will dissolve the carcass in a few minutes. Lasers don't do well on vent temps, a stick thermometer is better in that application. -------------------------"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest." . R-134A has a slightly lower pressure at evaporator temperatures (30-40 degrees), but R-134a also has a much higher pressure at condenser temperatures (120-150 degrees). It is also used in automotive car conditioning and the plastic industry. The symbol implies that R12 is a composite of carbon, chlorine, and fluorine. When you add fluorescent tracer dye to with the refrigerant oil it helps to track down leaks that push oil out of the system. GWP is a measurement of Greenhouse Gases and their effect on Global Warming. The condenser water inlet temperature and flow rate are controlled with the use of a . From memory, I put in at least 8 ounces of oil, probably around 10 ounces in there. difference between r12 and r134a expansion valve. R12 systems used mineral oil, but unfortunately mineral oil doesn't dissolve in R134a. Sense ells no existirem. Hot coolant migrates up through the core by convection (is that the word? Expansion valves are an active device, they regulate the flow of refrigerant to the evaporator depending on evaporator temperature. System has been working fine for a year. This would be a custom install, there is no "drop-in" condensor upgrade for that car.Check for proper fan operation, and clean the air path on both the condensor & radiator. R134a has a smaller molecule than R12 so R134a will leak out sooner than R12. When the ambient air temps get above 80F the gauge readings can run a bit higher on the high side and lower on the low side when using R134a. R12 and R22 are both now banned by the EPA in the United States. I used a full can of evap cleaner. The typical scenario here is when the car owner buys an inexpensive retro-fit kit from the local auto parts store. Heres R12 vs. R134a pressure chart. You either get a system that will function well with R1234yf or get any other type. It's actually a reaction with chlorine in the mineral oil that may have been absorbed and leftover from the old R-12. I don't think it has any air dams or seals, I'll check to make sure. The cure is to use the newer R134a compressors is sealing washers that are different thickness. We are an automotive mechanic blog that helps mechanics and car users to find the most recent and accurate technical and repair information for their cars. A comparison between R12 vs. R134a temperature will show that R12 has a higher temperature than R134a. Its not that difficult but the procedures of evacuation, charging and testing should be done by a licensed a/c technician that is experienced with R134a and your particular car. A capacity curve is shown in figure 2 for relative capacity of R134a vs. R12 for evaporating temperatures from 0F to 50F. R134a is NOT less efficient than R12 Actually R134a is more efficient. July 3, 2022July 3, 2022. A Lot of the fins are bent, especially at the top. The good thing is that after you convert to R134 you can top off the system easily and cheaply. Any advice appreciated. R134a is otherwise called 1,1,1,2 Tetrafluoroethane, Florasol 134a, Freon 134a, Norflurane (INN) or HFC 134a. I'm not sure. Mine was 61, so the system is not working as it is supposed to. You can also check the Aux fan in your case. ~ Mahatma Gandhi, Gandhi, An Autobiography, M. K. Gandhi, page 446. They can be mounted quite easy,and there is a mounting kit that helps to hang it. Usually, mechanics charge around $200 for conversion. At the time I thought nothing of it, but now I am thinking maybe that is contributing to the system not working as well as it could. Kommentare . They should be able to keep you comfortable on a long trip, but don't expect vent frost in 3 minutes or lesss.2) Too much oil can reduce cooling capacity, and the effect is not linear. 2001-2023 Griffiths Technical Inc. All Rights Reserved. With the oil leaking out and being told all sorts of things about how these compressors don't have a sump etc, I wanted to be on the safe side. Is that reasonable?Vent airflow is good, I think. Since there is only about a 10% difference between R-12 and R-134a, the expansion valve being self-compensating really doesn't make that much difference. R-12 is no longer used or produced in many countries and remaining quantities have skyrocketed in price. You do not need to replace every o-ring in the system, but if you happen to open a connection that has an o-ring you should replace the old o-ring with one that is compatible with R134a and lubricate the o-ring with ac oil. The MB chart shows 360 psi with R12 in some conditions. In cases such as this, the required capacity value of the expansion valve with R134a is reduced by 30% (correction factor 1.42). R-12 to R-134a Conversion. Can I use the one for the R-12? So, instead of using R12, other better options include R401b, R134a, R401a, etc. Is there a difference in the expansion valve for R12 as opposed to R-134a? But as there's not a big difference, people say you can suffice with either. Nevertheless, if your application is configured only for R12, then you can use it or consider replacing the applications engine. But R22 is almost equally damaging. and recharged with mineral oil and 2.2 lbs R12. As R134A refrigerant has different operating characteristics and pressures this valve is not necesssry. However, you can convert R12 to R134a by yourself, save money and keep all the tools purchased. The Wikipedia explanation for expansions valves cited in Frank's thread says that the gas inside the bulb in the metering valve is the same as the refrigerant in the system. I had a 1991 BMW switched to 134a by just changing the low pressure charging valve, flushing and refilling with 134 (maybe with 10% . 4 Stars & Up & Up; 3 Stars & Up & Up; 2 Stars & Up . It won't be optimal, though. Moreso, it had been banned. look at the difference! ). Superheat you can consider to be the additional amount of heat. Tamb oferim en VOSC el contingut daquestes sries que no es troba doblat, com les temporades deDoctor Who de la 7 en endavant,les OVA i els especials de One Piece i molt ms. Well, I'm not sure it is 'fine' - it doesn't cool very well in 95F weather. Be sure to test @ 1500 to 2000 engine rpm, and record the ambient temp as well. Questions About Becoming A Professional Member? Temp switch works the aux fan. The analysis focuses on Coefficient of Performance for . . Related products. In sum, R12 has done more bad than good. Operating Pressure/Temperature Differences The pressure/temperature curves for R-1234yf and R-134a are very similar. In 1994 they switched from R-12 to R-134a. Above this temperature, the saturation pressure of R134a is higher than that of R12; below, it is lower. This chart has a column of ambient (outside) air temperatures on one side and a corresponding range of high side pressures on the other side. Minor adjustments to the expansion valve and other controls may be necessary for some plans. R12, on the other hand, is called chlorofluorocarbon (CFC). Rules governing changing from the former to the latter differ between countries. Any suggestions, or do you need to know the hi/lo readings? Typically 5 to 6 ounces of a/c oil is adequate but this may vary depending upon the car. As for R134a and R1234yf, theres no room for conversion. Above this temperature, the saturation pressure of R134a is higher than that of R12; below, it is lower. If there is a resource I should read first to save you time, let me know. I'm thinking of jumping the temp switch and leaving the fan on to see how it does. Do a pre-inspection and then Evacuate (vacuum down) the system, the longer the evacuation the better but there is a point of diminishing return, 2-3 hours is generally very good. Generally, the new amount is 75-85% of the quantity advised by the manufacturer. But as there's not a big difference, people say you can suffice with either. R404a for freezing of product. I would suggest you do stay away from R-134a since with the hot gas bypass of your system (if it is to be just as the original) extremes of temperature and pressure will be very hard on your compressor and the rest of the system. Unfortunately, the oil only mixes with the refrigerant as a liquid. I would not do a 134a conversion without a PF condensor. $21 . Helical and Serpentine coils. link to How to cut off a Catalytic Converter. I have just bought gauges. Plus, not releasing the chemical into the air is morally justifiable. Took me a while to figure that one out, and how to say that. Is there a graph? system of 0.33 TR and refrigerant used was R12. If ambient is 90 (today) and the output of the condensor is 110, that's pretty good isn't it? Please enter the name by which you would like to log-in and be known on this site. Then when it is switched off for a few minutes and then back on, the air cools again. It's helluva humid and hot here in north florida, and I drive around all day for my job. El maig de 2016, un grup damics van crear un lloc web deOne Piece amb lobjectiu doferir la srie doblada en catal de forma gratuta i crear una comunitat que inclogus informaci, notcies i ms. There is more to check.The evaporator must be clean as well as the condensor - was this a smoker's car?You should check the water control valve for the heater core. ambulance tailgate conversion There are significant differences between R12, R134a, and R513A, which must be considered when handling, processing, applying, or retrofitting with these refrigerants. If you have 10 ounces of oil in the system, that is contributing to the poor performance as well. Discussion in 'Technical' started by Jsarnold, May 25, 2012. Besides, its technology has been tested and trusted. Trinary Pressure Switch $ 39.99. Before R12 was replaced with R134a in 1995, it was mostly used in trucks and cars. Mark Baker R-401b is the mixture by weight of 61% R22, 11% R-152a and 28% of R-124. The difference between the two is about 10,000 btu/h. Hope this helps. R134a is the most widely accepted alternative automotive refrigerant used to replace R12. The smoking question & vent airflow indicate that the evaporator is fairly clean - and you are aware of the importance of that.The heater valve stops the flow, but there is always some conduction heating. 4.R404A R134a increased mass transfer resistance to reduce the transmission chamber heat coefficient, while R507 heat transfer coefficient is higher than R404A. How an A/C Expansion Valve Works. VerticalScope Inc. All Rights Reserved. It is usually sold under the brand name, Freon 12. They have no moving parts. With that said, I would source the TXV from another source such as NAPA just to avoid any problems. Add to cart. 1) Look Here at the available sizes of PF condensors.2) Go look at your vehicle's condensor & mounting. The pressure at low temperatures is nearly the same between 12 and 134a. That way I will have reduced the oil by about 1/3 (assuming the oil is mixed evenly through the system). With tube & fin condensors in MVAC applications there is never "too much" airflow. had writing on the side that said R134a. On this website we are addressing only R134a and not other suggested drop in replacements. R134a and R12 are among the most popular types of refrigerants. I think so. _____ 2012 E350 2006 Callaway SC560 . First, differences in physical properties: 1, insoluble R12 compressor oil is used (to reduce the lubricant) 2, dissolved sealing materials are used (resulting in refrigerant leakage) 3, easy to damp (so easy to internal . If you you dont have the free time to play then you are better off to pay a technician.
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